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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.22 14:45:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 22/11/2006 16:01:42
Lowest tier guns
* Lowest tier guns for all ships
* Hurricane and Cyclone has missiles + guns
* Ive used light drones on the Hurricane because it only has 30 m3 of drones and its better with 5 lights than 3 mediums (cant use both in graph). Cyclone has 40 m3 so I used mediums for that one.
* Ive used medium drones on the Brutix because 5 mediums gives higher dps than 2 heavy.
This is with the 125 m3 drone bay on the Myrmidon.
Balanced? Remember that Myrmidon has +37.5% repair amount bonus as well. Hurricane has nothing.
[Added] Highest tier guns
[Added] More Realistic fitting (from Nyxus)
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.22 14:49:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Kassidus
the problem though with your graph, is if the pilot going against the mermidon is smart he will just pop teh drones then have little problem tanking him and then its just a matter of time before the mermidon pops.
all it takes is one ship with a smart bomb and the mermidon is reduced to low damage.
Im just asking if you feel its balanced.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.22 14:50:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Vincent Almasy
fix that chart to how their avg set ups are. The myrm's true weapon is.. you guessed it drones, so re scale that with the other's true weapons before you starts to cry nerf.
So whats the others true weapons?
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.22 15:00:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ath Amon
note that this graph is prenerf hurricane with 3 damage mods vs myrmidon with no dmg mods...
That sort of thing tend to make a fair bit of difference, yeah. 
But yeah, remove one more turret from the Hurricane... I mean, drones can be destroyed, so Hurricane should really be balanced to the Myrmidon dps without the drones shouldnt it? Also it uses no cap. Ever.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.22 15:08:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 22/11/2006 15:11:08
By the way, maybe have a look at the relation between the Brutix and the Cyclone (tier 1 battlecruisers)? I guess Brutix is horribly unbalanced then. Buff the Brutix? I think it needs 125 m3 drone bay as well to be balanced to the Cyclone.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.22 15:14:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kassidus
man if you guys look at teh graphs on all ships from BS to frigates theres always ships that seem over powered that are fine the way they are, and infact dont get used alot, this game isnt all about everyone having the same thing , my god you people act like this is world of warcraft , this is EVE balance doesnt mean as much here.
Right. Lets ignore this graph.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.22 15:44:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 22/11/2006 15:46:14
Originally by: Butter Dog
Thos DPS graphs are an exercise in pure theory. Practically, they mean f*** all.
Strange, they seem to have worked to get the Hurricane nerfed.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.22 15:57:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ithildin
I think - don't do graphs unless you've got reasonable set ups. Give the reasons why you use this or that turret. The graph in the OP seems engineered to show Myrmidon on top.
I used the lowest tier guns for all ships. I think it was a pretty fair comparison. Want to see a comparison with all the ships using their highest tier guns? Here you go. Comments?
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.22 16:11:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Vincent Almasy
Umm, with your full weapon brutix doesn't match the set up I showed you, is something wrong woth your full gank?
I didnt add full gank. I wanted to show Ithildin the difference between the highest tier guns and the lower tier guns since he seemed convinced I had picked some kind of perfect scenario for the Hurricane. The larger tier guns only increases the difference between the minmatar and the gallente ships.
I cant add your setup. The excel sheet only allows one kind of guns for every ship. They must all be the same.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.22 16:19:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 22/11/2006 16:18:55
Originally by: Heelay Ashrum
hm... discuss for every possible fitting it's pointless .. many things are not considered ( tanking, speed, cap, tracking .....). graph gave some generic idea, and they are usefull that way, but they must not be considered as "the bibble". Myr to be realy usefull need more drone bay, but then need also a turret herfing.. that's all. I hope we have the chance to test it with more bay and some turret less.
Yeah, I very much agree with that, but appearently people think the ship is balanced as it is, so not only are we wrong, but the Brutix needs a big boost to be competitive to the Cyclone...right?
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:12:00 -
[11]
You can stop arguing now. If you havent read Tux latest blog, I can tell you that he thinks 5 heavy drones are fine on this ship. So thats that.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.23 08:40:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Well sorry man but this is a blatant lie and you know it. He said that one can use 5 heavies but in the right next sentence he implied that you have to be suicidal to do that. And in the one after that he also stated the fact that all drone users say. It's not viable to go to a fight with no spare drones.
What is wrong here? You were one of the people that was saying all along that the Myrmidon needs a drone bay capacity increase. More so after the removal of 2 slots (2 highs iirc?). And suddenly it took the lowest increase (25 cubic meters) and you you start a crusade that Myrmidon is overpowered.
Well can you answer this?
Was it ok before and you just supported needed change for the laugh of it? Or is it something else behind this total change of yours?
I know, I supported additional drones for the Myrmidon and I still do, but I dont feel its right it should have 6 low slots and 6 turrets as well. Like ive said in the sticky thread, I would have removed 2-3 turrets from the ship and given it 250 m3 drone bay for 10 heavy drones, but then I would have liked the Hurricane and Drake to get their extra turret/launcher back as well.
So now when the ship has 5 heavy drones, 6 turrets and 6 lows, 5 medium slots and also repair amount bonus and drone hitpoint and damage bonuses, I think the ship looks overpowered. Specially when you compare how the Brutix and the Cyclone are in relation to eachother. Nobody thinks the Brutix sucks and people generally feel its pretty balanced. And its dps is not that much higher than the Cyclone. While the difference between the Hurricane and the Myrmidon is absolutely huge. But it depends in a large part on the fact that much of the dps comes from drones. For Brutix, you have only 50 m3 of drones.
Anyway, for me, the discussion is over now that Tux has pretty much given us his opinions. Sorry if you feel I changed opinions over this ship, but ive tried to explain why above. And it happens over time, specially when they nerfed the Hurricane and the Drake, because balance is always relative to the other ships in the same class.
But yeah. End of discussion really. :)
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